That sounds like the Belgian Manhattan, made by Jansenn. What kind of proof makes does it have? .. Bushrod

 

Well, let me try to describe the marks on the bottom of the chambers area of each bbl. There are 5 marks. From front to back there are the letters BA....then a symbol that looks a wide arrowhead on a short shaft.....then what looks like a superimposed script letter S..... then a square with a number 12 over a number 5..... then a symbol best described as an oval with a crown on top and inside the oval as an E over an IG over a star (hard to read).

In front of the block, also on the bottom of the bbls.... left bbl is stamped "choke" and 18.0 over 18.1. Right bbl does not have the word choke, but is stamped 18.2. There are other marks in this area, but I can't make them out. Also stamped on the top of the left bbl next to the rib are the words "Choke Fore" (small but crisp stamps).

 

OK, I've pulled up a couple of sites with proof marks and it's obvious that this is a Belgium gun (or at least Belgium Bbls). What I was more interested in is whether or not these "Damascus Like Finish" bbls are actually steel like I suspect. It would be nice to know the maker as well. Can I also assume that Manhattan imported guns from several different makers?

 

You're right, some Manhattans were made by J P Sauer and are very high quality guns.. They will have Suhl proof marks.. Bushrod

 

I bought a flat of Polywad Vintager 2 1/2" 24gram #8s for this gun and took it out to the Skeet field today. The only targets I missed was a High 1 and a Low 7, probably due to the super low comb compared to my target guns. It hit the targets pretty hard. It was fun. When I got home I measured the bores and they are .720 and .718 with no choke at all. Those small bore sizes puzzle me a bit. Can anyone shed some light?

Anyway, this makes me want to buy a modern hammer gun to use for benefit sporting clays shoots when they have special SXS classes. What to buy, what to by?

 

Manhattan Arms was a name used by the importers Shoverling, Daly, and Gales. They were the marketers of Charles Daly guns also.

 

I have one of these I inherited, never used it because of age (or too old looking).

Mine is marked like this,

Manhattan Arms Co (left side)

The Interchanceable (rt. side)

Under the right bbl is

R
A line with a diamond
A diamond with 12 (over) C inside the diamond
and a crown with a circle and the letters inside E (over) LG

Lft. bbl

H

the rest is the same as the rt side

and on the rib between the bbls is

Belgian Laminated Steel

No s/n

I tried to remove the bbl by pushing that button the foreend but to no avail.. I just don't know the procedure to remove it.

I've been catalogueing my collection to have a permanent record,

any knowledge and info is appreciated

TIA

CooT

 

Coot: yours is one of the inexpensive guns imported in the 1900 era. The name Interchangeable was used by several Belgian makers, Janseen, Dumoulin and possible others... Bushrod

 

Yehh... It looks cheap.. and it's ugly too

(@ 20% blue left)

 

O.K. I looked a little further in my reference book and here's what I found.
Manhatan Arms Co
Neumann Feres until 1903 if Belgian made
F. Dumoulin 1903 if Belgian made
J.P. Sauer if German made
Harrington & Richardson if single gun
Hunter Arms Company if U.S. made hammerless double
Sold by Schoverling,Daley & Gates

European made guns will have proof marks on the bottom of the barrels. The letters "ELG" in an oval if Belgian. I'm not sure what German proofs are.

 

Ned - what reference book is that? Sounds useful.

Thanks

 

Pumpster
I don't know if this will go through or not as the postings are so old. Anyway the reference book is "Shotgun Markings 1865 to 1940, A List" compiled by Joseph T. Vorisek. I've had my copy for over ten years and have had to make a copy because the original was becoming so worn. Joe had his own publishing company Armscorp to publish his books which were extensive. However Joe died in December 2006 and the publishing went with him. I've since found out that another publisher has taken over. They are Cornell Publications LLC and can be contacted at www.cornellpubs.com/index.pap. When I originally bought my copy, it sold for $25.00. I don't know the price now. There is another book by Joe called "The Breech Loading Shotgun In America 1865 to 1940".
It comes in three volumes and lists almost every shotgun sold in America in that time period. This one costs or did $125.00
Ned Fall

 

The Manhattan Arms Co shotgun saga continues. I have a hammerless, side by side boxlock 12 ga shotgun. Is there anyone that could give me any details about this shotgun? I read many of the posts about the Manhattan Arms Shotguns people own but none that sound similar to mine. It is in very nice condition but the butt stock has a crack in it. Any info would be appreciated.

 

In that SD&G used the Manhatten Arms Co. name on so many of their mid- to lower level imported and domesitcally produced shotguns, we need to see some pictures of your gun to really tell what you have. In the 1912 SD&G catalogue their hammerless Manhatten Arms Co. double was a "trade named" Hunter Arms Co. Fulton --

Back about the time I was in college my Father had a 10-gauge Damascus barrel gun marked Manhatten Arms Co. that was very obviously a mid-grade Birmingham Anson & Deeley boxlock.

 

I was home for the holidays on leave and will be heading to Afghanistan for the next year with the army. I will get the pictures posted when I get back.

 

i also have one of these guns, mine is a 16 ga SxS it has all the same markings as previously discussed but it is a double hammer double trigger. it is Damascus Belgian rolled steel number 001-12 i will be posting pictures soon if anyone is interested and can tell me anything else

 

First understand that there was no MANHATTEN ARMS CO(MPANY). That is a "Trade Brand Name" used by several makers both foreign and domestic. Used mostly on guns made for and sold by Schoverling Daly & Gales, a dealer located in New York City from 1873 to 1940. There were three foreign makers two Belgian, Neumann Feres on guns made up to 1903 and F. Dumoulin on guns made after 1903. Both of these will have Belgian proof marks consisting of the letters "ELG" in an oval stamped on the bottom of the barrels under the forearm. There was one other foreign the J. P. Sauer & Son which was German. There were also two U.S. made guns with this name, one double barrel hammerless made by the Hunter Arms Company and a single barrel made by Harrington & Richardson. There were also other uses made of the name MANHATTEN DOUBLE used both on Belgian made guns and guns made by Hunter Arms Company. There was one other name used,MANHATTEN ARMS-NITRO POWDER SUPERIOR QUALITY. This name was also used by Hunter Arms Company on Fulton Models made for Schoverling Daly & Gates. More later.

 

More important is whether our Manhattan Arms guy, SS, made it back from Afghanistan. Does anyone know whether he has posted lately?

 

Iam confused I have the same markings on the underside of my barrels as Coot with a serial # 19522 0527 foward of the release. On the top the R barrel says "Piper Breach" and the left barrel says " Damascus Finish" "Belgium". The Rib says patent 488366 Decb 20, 1890. This gun is in great shape has some nice checkering and is very easy to break. Is it not wort anything or just a wall hanger?

 

As said, there was no Manhatten Arms Company. That was a "Trade Brand Name" used by several makers on shotguns made for and sold by wholesale sporting goods dealers, retail chain stores, independent retailers and importers in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The known makers were Neumann Freres (Belgium), F. Dumoulin (Belgian), J. P. Sauer & Son (German), Harrington & Richardson (USA) and Hunter Arms Company (USA). The largest seller was Schoverling, Daley & Gates a wholesale sporting goods dealer. If the gun was made in Belgium, there will be Belgian proof marks stamped on the bottom of the barrels consisting of the letters "ELG" in an oval with a crown on top. Most of the Belgian made guns were imported between 1880 and 1914 when World War One cut off exports from Europe. These guns were made using the technology and metallurgy of the times. They will have damascus barrels with 2 1/2 inch chambers designed for shells loaded with black powder and lead shot. They were not designed for modern 3 inch or magnum shells loaded with high pressure smokeless powder and steel shot. Since we can not see your gun to determine its condition, we err on the side of caution and say that it is not safe to shoot so hang it on the wall!

 

Gentlemen: I have been researching to determine if a S x S, hammered shot gun left to me by my dad is worth restoring, not a lot of sentimental value as someone probably gave it to him somewhere along the line. In that research I came across this old thread which looks to end around 9 or 10 years ago. The gun is in less than perfect condition, worst of all someone down the line dovetailed a few extra inches to the stock adding a butt with what looks like a plate from an old 30-03. All the markings indicate that this was of Belgium manufacture, at least based on the advice from the conversation here. The only difference I see from some of the others is there is no serial number anywhere I can find. Advice? is it worth taking to a decent gunsmith? I live near NYC, so the gun was probably originally purchased locally over 100 years ago. If yes, any recommendations as to who is good with these old models? I appreciate any advice.

 

As a connection with your father it is of course priceless.
It has very little practical value, may not be safe to shoot, and the cost of any restoration attempt would far exceed its worth.

Please check this thread for ID help
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... 5&t=232252

We might be able to provide more information as to maker and DOM if you would post full size close up images of every mark on the rib, barrel flats and just forward of the flats, and action flats.

 

Gentlemen,

Did he make it home from Afghanistan safely, anybody heard from him?

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man