Will the Browning Citori from Miroku, Japan ever be considered collectible?

The traditionalist in me says "no," but here in central Pennsylvania, a hotbed of car collecting, I'm quite familiar with "the Matchbox effect." That's the penchant of car guys with money to buy the cars they had (or wanted) as Matchbox toys growing up.

And since the gap between growing up and having money is typically 40 to 50 years -- the span from childhood to corner office -- the greatest collector demand is for things made 40 to 50 years ago. For awhile, it was Model Ts. Then they went out of vogue. Then it was aero cars like the Lincoln Zephyr. Then they went out of vogue. Now it's muscle cars.

Forty to fifty years ago, Brownings were still made by FN in Belgium, but that would soon change, and the Matchbox effect argues that the Miroku Brownings will become soon become collectible.

Enjoy!
Dave

 

And are FN Brownings really THAT much different than Miroku Brownings?

 

I do believe there will be a growing collector market for rare citori's. The grade V's have already proved that people will pay more for hand engraving. Until a few weeks ago I had no idea that some grade VI's were hand engraved. As a collector of nice guns I would pay extra to have one of those in my collection. Machine engraving, while nice, has no soul. IMO.

Here is my (soulless )grade VI .410 over top of my Grade V 12ga.

 

Here is my (soulless )grade VI .410 over top of my Grade V 12ga.

Nice, very nice!
Dave

 

Here's a pic of my Citori 20ga Superlight with 28in barrels. Steel receiver, not alloy. Invector chokes. From what I understand from Glen Jensen at Browning (since retired), the 20ga Superlight with 28in barrels is pretty rare. I don't have any info on how many Browning made. Maybe I'll give Lenny a call and see if he can find out.

Note to Buffington: notice the quarter inch rubber butt pad (Browning) so that it doesn't slip off your shoulder, like the hard plastic ones do. Works great!!

In any event, she points and shoots like a dream!

Respectfully submitted,

CFB

 

I like how the engraver in the first couple photos (K. Tsu Tsui) seems to have subtly but deliberately gone with a more "Japanese" style vs. a lot of the old Belgian guns. For example the formalized poses of the birds, and the stylistic chrysanthemum design on the trigger guard, as opposed to the more naturalistic style of the old FN engravers.

I don't think one style is necessarily better than the other, but if high-grade Citoris are going to ever be as collectible as Superposed, they should have their own distinct look, otherwise they'll be seen as inferior imitations.

 

Check out the new "hand-engraved" Grade VII 725 Citori . . . New distinctive engraving style that sets it apart from the engraved Brownings of yester-year. I like it.

There is also a new Grade V.

Looks like Browning is out to create some new "classics" with these awesome looking hi-grades. These are not engraved Superposed wanna-bees.

These photos are from Browning's website.

Grade VII

Grade V

Respectfully,

CFB

 

Here's a pic of my Citori 20ga Superlight with 28in barrels.

Arrrgh! The picture isn't there

Note to Buffington: notice the quarter inch rubber butt pad (Browning) so that it doesn't slip off your shoulder, like the hard plastic ones do. Works great!!

If you get a chance, please send a picture of that rubber pad. I'll see if I can order one from Browning.

In any event, she points and shoots like a dream!

It does! {hs#

 

Check out the new "hand-engraved" Grade VII 725 Citori . . .

Damn you, CFB :wink: I've really been really trying to really forget about that Grade VII. There's no way I can justify it, and there's no way I can forget it either. I honestly think it's the most attractive Browning shotgun -- of any era -- I've ever seen.

 

Can Citoris be collectible? Well, here's one data point …

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =518020362

It's a very attractive Grade V Citori .410 in excellent, but not mint, condition. You got to ding it for the dings on the buttstock. I'd also deduct for the fixed skeet/skeet chokes.

It ended up selling for $2,908 this weekend (Nov. 2015). I was prepared to go to $2,500 for it, but at least in this case, the market said more.

Enjoy!
Dave

 

BTW ... I should add that the Blue Book values the gun -- in 95 percent condition -- at $2,340.

 

Can Citoris be collectible? Well, here's one data point …

Look at those happy ducks! No wonder it sold for $600 over blue book. I gotta stay out of this thread before I start spending money I need for other things... :wink:

 

Meanwhile, a 12ga P1H Skeet sold for $2,875.00, and a 12ga P1C Trap for $3,450.00. Both were engraved and signed by Jose Baerten and both were in Browning Airways cases.

Everybody has their preferences.

The only Citori I have worth mentioning is a '79 28ga 'Sporter' (as they called it back then) in 26.5" IC/M.

I don't really consider it a collectible - it was a first anniversary present from my wife. But it DOES have nice engraving and fixed chokes.

 

Dave's question: Will the Browning Citori from Miroku, Japan ever be considered collectible?

No. It is one of those things, if you have to ask . . . it won't likely won't be. They tend to jump a bit when they are no longer made. For example, the Miroku-made A-5: hardly collectible, yet not in production.

You can collect anything you want, of course, but Citori's are not museum pieces and there is no reason for them to be.

 

Seems to me that we sometimes loose sight of what makes a old shotgun desirable. For a gun to be something that I would like to have in my closet and consider collectible it needs to be a good gun, not just a canvas for another in a long line of a repeated engraving pattern. Granted its nice work done by a talented engraver but I would bet if you could get those engravers to tell the truth of it they probably got sick and tired of having to do the same patterns over and over again. Not much creativity in that and because of that i dont consider a Diana anymore collectible than a grade 1. For my money a plane jane model 21 winchester is collectible and every bit as desirable as the most expensive one ever made.
Maybe just a poor boy's way to look at the world but I think people get things way confused sometimes and consider something "collectible " because its so expensive that few can or will justify spending a years wages on it and call it collectible. Things like that aren't collectible, there outrageously expensive! I have an old std 16ga A5 that I consider collectible. Probably wouldn't bring more than a couple hundred buck on GB but that has nothing to do with how collectible it is. If some dummy would give me $20,000.00 for it i guess that it would then be considered collectible huh? They made a gillion of them. Probably about as many as they made of fancy engraved over and unders.

 

This thread is addressed to 'Citori Lovers' - and while I'm not a Citori 'lover' (as much as the Superposed).....I am not a hater......either of Citori's or people who 'Love' them. So, I decided to comment.

I always cringe when someone says Labs are the best retrievers because more Labs have won National Field Trials than any other retrieving breed. :roll:

Jim P brings-up several interesting and viable points.

It DOES seem like Diana's occupy a large portion of the Superposed market. I guess that is because there is something 'undesirable' about the ones that remain for sale. The right person will eventually come along and end-up with the gun of their dreams, perhaps.

'Collectability' has widely been defined by:

• originality [/*]
• condition [/*]
• desirability and [/*]
• rarity.[/*]

I contend that it is up to the individual to decide what is 'collectable' based on ones passion.

By the same token - it is up to the 'market' to govern what is 'collectable' based on return.

'Depends on your perspective and how we eaach define 'collectability'.

The reason I love the Superposed is because I'm a 'Romantic' and tend to live in the past. I was first introduced to Brownings in the early 60's (my pre-teens) through the pages of Sports Afield, Field and Stream, and Outdoor Life.

My family couldn't afford the Brownings but us 3 boys adopted it as the 'standard'.

Now, I'm buying the guns I fell in love with 53 years ago......and am just finally able to afford.

Truth be known, I'm more in love with Browning's commitment to, and relationship with their customers back then................and the art and craftsmanship of guns that have proven their longevity.

Times have changed.

 

Very good posts here. For someone to say definitively that a gun will or won't be a collectible is an opinion at best. Pure speculation. If Citoris won't become collectible one day than why do so many continue to pay top dollar for used ones. Its a guessing game much like the stock market.

 

Very good posts here. For someone to say definitively that a gun will or won't be a collectible is an opinion at best.

No one universally agrees on what "collectible" means. My 84 year old mother collects rolling pins. Quite unsurprisingly, I do not.

 

For a synopsis on what collecting means (different things to different people) go to the web site of my friend www.bckinsey.com and click "Tips" on the home page. It's a short read on the subject and describes the subject broadly. Incidentally, while you are there take a look at the beautiful guns for sale including spectacular Brownings

 

I paid $1400 for an older grade VI 410 about 6 years ago on gun broker. Today it would do twice that. Is it because of inflation, desirability or collectors. I don't know, but I'm keeping it.

 

(different things to different people)

No kidding. The distinction I try to draw is between desirable, but not investment-grade, and higher dollar items likely to retain value and appreciate somewhat. A purchase for "retained value" isn't my speed, for that means the gun cannot be used much. It is the condition / condition / condition thing.

There are guns that I personally find interesting, useful, and desirable that are not expensive. To me, that's A-5 / Double Auto / B2000 territory, but not a Citori.

 

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=221136

 

Can Citoris be collectible? Well, here's one data point …

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =518020362

It's a very attractive Grade V Citori .410 in excellent, but not mint, condition. You got to ding it for the dings on the buttstock. I'd also deduct for the fixed skeet/skeet chokes.

It ended up selling for $2,908 this weekend (Nov. 2015). I was prepared to go to $2,500 for it, but at least in this case, the market said more.

Enjoy!
Dave

I was the second highest bidder on that gun and would have went higher if not for the chokes. A very desirable gun.

 

Are the signed/engraved Citoris in the same category as the "Giovanelli engraved" Berettas that are not "Giovanelli engraved", but engraved, etched, or stamped to a Giovanelli design. Many sellers of Beretta guns incorrectly or fraudulently advertise their guns as being engraved by that person. Is this the case with Citoris, and will we ever know the truth? I like Citoris just fine, just not square knob pistol grip guns with beavertail forends and recoil pads. Even a Belgium made Super with these features is not anywhere near a collector gun.

 

Are the signed/engraved Citoris in the same category as the "Giovanelli engraved" Berettas that are not "Giovanelli engraved", but engraved, etched, or stamped to a Giovanelli design. Many sellers of Beretta guns incorrectly or fraudulently advertise their guns as being engraved by that person. Is this the case with Citoris, and will we ever know the truth? I like Citoris just fine, just not square knob pistol grip guns with beavertail forends and recoil pads. Even a Belgium made Super with these features is not anywhere near a collector gun.

Amen Brother!!!!!!