Good question. I've never seen any real discussion of Winchester 37 variations. People seem to just use those terms and assume everyone else knows what they mean.

Are "Red Letter" 37's and "Steelbilt" 37's mutually exclusive? I think I remember seeing a 37 marked "Steel Bilt" that also had the red paint in the lettering.

I've also seen references to "pigtail" 37's and I have absolutely no idea what they would be.

 

The pigtail was the break lever. It was curled over and actually had a hole in it resembling a pig tail but in late 30's it was replaced. Some models did still have the pigtails until they ran out or were replaced as the parts eventually got wear and tear.

 

Looking at Ron Stadt's excellent book, WINCHESTER SHOTGUNS AND SHOTSHELLS Winchester identified the Model 37 series as "Steelbilt" because "This new Winchester is made with steel in all metal parts....". The term, REDLETTER was not something Winchester coined but collectors, who prize them over others. The name WINCHESTER was stamped beneath the receiver and highlighted with red paint but after approximately 1948 the stamping ceased. Model 37's remained in production until 1963.
So, all Model 37's will be "Steelbilt" but only the pre-1948 guns with the word WINCHESTER stamped under the receiver will be "red letters". I have seen a number of guns with the stamping but no paint remaining but according to experts, it should have been there originally.

 

LC Smith,

Thanks for that informative and concise explanation of "Steelbilt" and "Red Letter".
Does the book say whether or not ALL 37's made between 1936 and 1948 are "Red Letter" guns?
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CBlock,

I do know that "pigtail" refers to the release lever. In the first year of production, that lever was a strip of steel that had the end curled over onto itself, just like a pig's tail. At some point, during that second year, Winchester created a cast lever that was of a more typical design and used that lever for the remaining years of production.

This picture shows the pigtail release lever.

Dean

 

Thank you, DeanMK for the explanation and the picture.

 

These 2 paragraphs are the references Ron has for the two topics discussed.

"2. The first top levers were formed from sheet metal. At the rear, the metal was folded, leaving a tear-shaped hole. A forging was authorized on September 25, 1936. The new top lever was much more attractive."

"3. The first receivers had "Winchester" stamped under the receiver. The depressed logo was painted red-thus "red letter" 37s, which many collectors prefer. After approximately 1948, receiver bottoms were plain."

George Madis in THE WINCHESTER HANDBOOK states the following;
"Bottoms of receivers are marked "WINCHESTER" in three-sixteenths high letters of the "Winchester Lightning Style" in issues prior to World War Two. Some earlier guns have this marking filled with red enamel."

I have seen some examples without the paint but just assumed it had come off. I recently sold one with only traces of red left.

 

LC,

Again, thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
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CBlock,

You're welcome.

Dean

 

Lots of other variations in barrel length, choke, etc. I know some of them, have never seen others:

.410s were all full choke and came in 26" and 28" barrels. Never seen any other variation.

28 ga. were made, are rare. Have only seen one, a 26" barrel with full choke. Anybody know of other barrel lengths or chokes?

20 ga was made in 26 modified, shortened stock "youth" model (so marked), and in 28" full choke. Anybody seen a "regular" 20 that was NOT full choke?

16 ga was made in 28" full choke and 30" full choke (uncommon). Anybody seen one in any other combination?

12 ga was made in 28" full choke and 30' full choke and 32" full choke (for export only as far as I know). Anybody seen any other combination?

Model 37s were copied in Brazil and Japan (for export only). Copies are close to Win looking, but have hardwood stocks other than walnut. As far as I know, all Win 37s had walnut stocks with the usual "Winchester red" stain.

Great little guns; my first shotgun was a .410 w/28" barrel. Bought new in 1952; I have it still, and also a 16 ga 28" fitted with choke tubes.

 

I never knew the stocks were stained.
I had always assumed a clear coat shot over an otherwise natural wood stock.
Thanks for the info, Mike.

Dean

 

Yeah, people have spent a lot of time trying to match the color of original Winchester stocks of the 20th century (not sure if they stained earlier stocks, although my Hiwall made in 1896 has exactly the same reddish color as my M37s). I believe there is even a commercial stock finish made to duplicate the color. I have refinished the stock on my M37 .410 several times since 1952 and never got the original color quite right, despite several "guaranteed" potions I copied off the internet.....

 

I posted some pertinent information earlier about the Winchester Model-37 that gives somewhat of a timeline to the details that I have noticed, along with some simple tests to help determine condition of operation.
How does that look?
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Some details that I have noticed in all my years of examining, repairing, rebuilding, and owning 37's:

Earliest versions had all been marked with a choke designation that was hand-stamped below the long one-line roll stamping. These all had pigtail opening levers.

I have never seen a pigtail version that was original without a separate choke stamping.
These also always had the blunt round end forearm
slim grip stock with curved wood and plate
small curl-back hammer
single combo spring and strut for trigger return and locking block return
red letter stamping on lower frame

Just after this the stamped choke mark was removed from the process and the single roll stamp had -choke- added to the breech end of the line
The pigtail lever was changed to a solid version at the same time

Just after that there was a change to a larger thumbpiece curl-back hammer, with all else apparently the same

Then the red-letter was eliminated with the advent of the slimmer forearm with the tapered end
The stock was changed to the thicker grip section with a flat wood end and plate
The 2 return spring and strut for trigger and locking block was introduced

Later, the curl-back hammer was changed to a curl-up hammer thumbpiece
The roll stamp was changed to a two-line version

I believe the hammer changes from slim profile to wide, and then curl-up was in response to shooters losing their grip when cocking the hammer with gloves or rabbit blood on their thumb.

Later versions with the 2 return springs can have the frame identified by noticing a tiny slit in front of the trigger slot in the lower frame where the end of the spring strut is located and retained by a third cross-pin.

37 barrels (and to a lesser extent, wood and parts) all were individually fit to the frame, and then the forearm iron was fitted. I have hardly ever seen a gun that had really secure and rigid lock-up. Almost all have a certain (albeit minimal, for the most part) amount of barrel wiggle side-to-side, and a small amount of up-and-down play may be present, too.
That is one reason to not expect barrels to have an easy interchange, and expect to need considerable fitting.

Part of my rebuilding work involves removal of any play, and making the gun lock-up tight and securely rigid. As long as the buttstock is tight against the frame, and is not cracked, you can wiggle-test the barrel like this:

Put the buttstock between your knees and pinch, grab the frame at the hinge with one hand, grab the barrel with the other, and wiggle side-to-side at the hinge. Do you feel that? Take off the forearm and try again. There is probably even more slack. A truly rigid gun will not wiggle in either case.

A careful feel with the frame hand at the edge of the barrel/frame breech edge will be able to feel if there is up-and-down play there, best tested with the forearm off, but try both ways.

The firing pin should not protrude or be made to move forward when pressing forward on the (actually semi-hammerless i.e. cocking piece) hammer, or else the safety notch is compromised. Check with the barrel open,

and by the way, did the ejector go "click" just now? If it only rises as the barrel opens, the part is broken. If it stays down almost flush with the chamber end of the barrel, it may just need a re-fit.

Bumping the hammer with a loaded shell should not generate a bang- yikes!

The forearm should not have appreciable wiggle while on the frame, but should be able to be pulled off without a monumental effort. I have to refit a number of mechanisms to make proper r&r.

Look for small cracks caused by contact of metal to the wood at the rear of the tang, and splits along the sides of the stock where it hits the frame flats. Forearm cracks are usually near the front side of the barrel channel and around the rear surrounding area that meets the frame.

This may not be complete, but it is comprehensive, for a good start.

Yes, I do have some guns and parts, besides talent for fixing these.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

 

Wow! Lots of info, Kirby! Both my 37s seem to be fairly tight after your tests; the .410 has been fired a lot more and is older, but still seems tighter. Probably was fitted tighter to begin with. When I was a kid, I had a very hard time removing the forend. Now that I have arthritis, I have trouble again!

Have you ever seen any of these that had a choke other than full that WEREN"T 20 ga."Youth Models"? I never have but you have probably have seen a lot more 37s than I have.

 

Thanks for the information, Kirby. Very interesting.

 

Kirby is right, he does have a talent for fixing these 37's. I got my .410 back from him and the kido's shot the hell out of that little gun...it's as good as new!!!!!

 

Were some guns ejectors and others extractors? I have a Red Letter Bull-nose forend .410 M37 that is an extractor.

 

I believer all were ejectors originally. However the ejector seems like it is the first thing to break, and many users disconnected the spring action ejector deliberately after the gun popped live shells into a ditch or the lake! After my .410 flang the second expensive shell into a creek, I disconnected the ejector and it is still an extractor to this day! I was a kid and .410 shells cost money. Now I reload them and want the cases in my hand when fired. Same with my 16. The original ejectors are VERY strong and shoot the empty, especially the empty 2 1/2"s, far away!

good to know there's a member who can fix 37s!

 

Kirby,

Thanks for the tech info. Your help is very much appreciated.
Is that wiggle test a general test for any break action gun, or something specific to the 37?
I've got a Savage and a couple of H&R's I'd like to check out.

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Another question for Mike (and thanks for your contributions, as well) - were there ever any 10 ga. model 37's made?

Dean

 

First post on this site.Seems like some outstanding information in this thread.I'm a newbie on this site but I have 13 years in the US Army as a small arms repairman.

Now on to why I'm posting.I bought a Winchester model 37 red letter over a year ago from a pawn shop for $50 out the door.It was in terrible shape and looked like a dog had been chewing on the stock. :shock: I'll be sending this whole gun to a friend to restore real soon.Does anyone know where I can get a stock under $80 for this.Really don't wanna spend alot on this restoration.Wish I would have taken better pics.It's now sandblasted and stripped all the way down.

 

armourer91f,

Welcome to the site. I hope your stay is an enjoyable one.

I found another thread at this board that my prove helpful to you - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=243919

Good luck with your project. You'll have to post some pics of the gun, once the work is completed.

Dean

 

Excellent info on my alltime favorite squirrel gun!

 

Bringing this thread back to life, in case anyone out there in shotgun land has any other info they'd like to add here.

Dean

 

The 28ga 37 is one that has always allured me. I've seen as many fakes as real ones. I've seen them in 26", 28" & 30" barrel. Most of the 28ga 37s were RedLetters but I've seen a couple "blue belly" guns as well. Other rare variations are the 32" barrel guns which were available in 12ga , 16ga & 20ga with the latter two being MUCH harder to find. I've also read about a short barrel 410 version made but have never seen one. The 37 was a basic, quality gun built to just put food on the table but has become part of American firearms history.

 

It's the gun that taught America how to shoot.
jmshunts, thanks for your info.
Could you please explain the term "blue belly"?
I've never heard that one before.

Dean

 

"Blue Belly" is just a term sometimes used for a Non-Red Letter gun.

 

Ah, Ok that makes sense.
Thanks. =)

Dean

 

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