Hi Stan: Hope all is well in your world?

Yes the Md 12 and Md 1897/97 adjusting sleeves do inter- change. However I don't have the "draw" scenerios down.

meaning a Md 12 you have the "original sleeve" and the others are numbered 1,2,3,4,5, & 6. Now on the Md 1897/97 they are lettered A,B,& C. What I don't know is if an original 1897/97 sleeve is not lettered and the replacements start with an A or A is the original. Also is a "B" equivent to a 2 or 3 for a Md 12 I don't know.

Regards Dave

 

Hi Dave,
i have one on a mod 97 that the indentions,are stripped. i found some for a mod 12 (not numbered) and the man who has them didn't know as i also didn't.
thank you for the help. i hope you're OK and doing well. thank you for the help. stan

 

The adjusting sleeves are similar, but there has never been a satisfactory jump in the progression for replacement in all my trials. A #1 that goes loose from running out of adjustment cannot be corrected by installing a number 2 sleeve, in every case that I have tried.

I have an assortment that I have measured and compared so there is a more likely chance for me to get in the ballpark. The learning curve on these old Winchesters and the parts available can be a challenge and substantial time investment, if you learn from the set-backs.

Watch out for the defective sleeves that came out when someone bent the set-up mandrel. The external interrupted threads are cut deeper on one side, and more shallow on the other side. Those threads have a wide flat on the top of the threads, and the opposite side has sharp tops on the threads.

Use of one of those causes mis-alignment of the chamber/ chamber ring joint. If you refit the chamber or fit a chamber ring at the same time, the future adjustment of the sleeve will cause a mis-alignment when that eccentrically-cut sleeve is moved to a new position of rotation.

Anybody ever tell you that before?

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

 

Hi Kirby: I've seen that, it's a "rookie" machinist problem. He/She didn't bother to verify the O/D was running concentric to the I/D before cutting.

I believe all the threads are single point cut, and you are dealing with 4 threads here. the barrel thread, the inside thread of the adjusting sleeve, the outside interrupted thread of the adjusting sleeve and the interrupted thread inside the receiver.

This means there are 4 different starting points for the lead thread. IE If you placed 5 barrels side by side and marked at the end of the barrel where the lead thread starts they will most likely all be different. Strickly do to the machine tolerance. Hence that's why you have to lap the face of an adjusting sleeve sometimes to get it to work.

IMO the adjusting sleeve on a Md 12 is the most complicated function. Dealing with four sets of threads, and getting the exact fit.

Regards Dave

 

Dave,
you are correct in that the problem of cutting threads off center-line is a beginner problem, but I have seen a drawer-full of brand new sleeves at the shop where I had worked that had just been bought from Olin during the last sell-off of stock parts for Model 12's.
Bunches of them with various numbers had ALL been cut on that bent adapter. I'll bet that somebody had run the carriage into the spindle area and "lightly" crashed against the parts jig.
No one bothered to run an indicator on the exterior prior to machining the parts, and the run-out of just a few thousandths is not easily seen, unless you care to look closely. Factory workers and all that, plus lackluster lighting, so I won't assign blame until it reaches the parts inspector.

If the factory had done comparison against a master, the sleeves would all match when they had the same number designation (and mine don't), and they could have made them pull in the barrel maybe .005" each progressive jump, so minimal fitting would have been needed.

I understand the point of multiple threads and locations not being "timed", but if the package was able to be fit with an "A" sleeve when leaving the factory floor, any gun with an "A" sleeve would all be able to have the sleeve changed to the next sleeve once the barrels ran out of adjusting notches.

I am only thinking of the common starting point, not the actual pre-fit work to make them all reach that starting point. I am sure you already understand all of this, anyway.

This next part is not a comprehensive history lesson, just comments of interest.

The barrel takedown for these guns was still a bit of an upgrade, compared to the original takedown lever rifles, since they used screws in the frame face that were backed out to remove thread play: basically an adjustable (one-sided) shim.

The next upgrade was the Remington 17 (IIRC), later to be reincarnated into the similar Ithaca 37, where the nut at the end of the mag. tube was "extended" to tension the barrel. I believe it was the Remington 31 that had the first mass production barrels that could be interchanged without fitting, when looking at threaded barrel attachment versions, and that didn't have the front end of the gun hanging on the barrel section.

Most shooters have seen the tongue-n-groove barrel/frames of the Savage/Stevens 520/620 as another version of swap-barrel takedowns (a few of them required minor fitting to swap). Those were probably the most common mass-production guns with the swap barrel feature from the early era, with lesser amounts of the old Marlins of blow-out bolt fame.
These old-timers all had the front half of the gun as a removable assembly, like 97's and M-12's.

The Winchesters and Savage copies (1921/28) were the ones with a fixed rim edge i.e. chamber ring. All the others had the headspace vary with the barrel/thread fit wear. Winchester decided to not do that with the .410 Model 42.

Anybody ever get to see the Model 12 .410, serial #8? I saw that at the Tulsa show, long ago, and that thing was built on a 12 gauge frame. The barrel tapering down to a skinny section from that fat breech made an unusual sight to behold.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

 

Ya'll have got me loster than a blindgoose in a hail storm. i'm sure the sleeve that is stripped is origional from the factory.
the ones the man had is all the same length as the one on the gun and it is on the last adjustment notch. i need to go to the next barrel sleeve but i don't know the number i need to use. the barrel doesn't wobble as near as i can tell and there isn't a gap between the receiver and the receiver extension but it needs to be a little tighter.the slots on the barrel collar is stripped and no so called gunsmiths (only 2 parts changers) in this part of the world has any. i need one but like i said i don't know witch one. any help i can get would be greatfully accepted. thank you Dave, and Kirby.

 

Hi Stan: Sorry to confuse you. If your gun has an original sleeve, not numbered or lettered, you need a Number 1 or 2 sleeve in a Md 12 or an "A" sleeve in Md 97. It sounds easy, but there is know way to tell how much wear in on the receiver inter-rupted thread. So going from an original to a #1 may not be enough, that's why I said a #1 or #2.

It has to do with the "draw" of the thread.!! Each numbered adjusting sleeve draws the barrel cloeser in!! (lettered ones do the same).

Regards Dave

 

Hey there , on a Winchester model 1897 with a C above the serial number ,12 gauge , what adjusting sleeve from the Model 12 would I want to use ? the "A" one ?

 

Dear Dave,
The situation with the adjustment sleeves, for all my experience, is that the "draw" does not coincide with the progression of the numbers, like it should in that perfect world.

That is why I explained about not being able to jump to the next number, unless you want to spend an inordinate amount of time fitting to that next sleeve.

I have compared many sleeves, and have a few example notes:

"B" and "C" with same draw
Blank and "6" almost the same
Another different blank and "3" the same

I will never expect the number system to save me any time for installation, after these and many other examples.

When I worked in that other shop, right after gunsmithing school, whenever I had to fix a loose barrel, I tried every sleeve to get the one that was going to be the least hassle to fit, and the sample choices would have different fitting but carry the exact same number marking.

There were some examples that were similar when the numbers matched, but there were enough mis-matches to know that it was not a seldom and random event, but rather an expected and not uncommon situation.

In other words, a real pain. I know the ins and outs of the barrel fit.

If you want to spend money on a sleeve or 2, that will be just about what I expect to typically charge to fit a barrel properly.

Go ahead and try the sleeves, and if or when they don't fix the barrel looseness, I'll do it for you, if you want. I do not recommend that you attempt to do anything beyond trying to swap sleeves. The fitting work to install one that is not already useful is more technical than a novice should attempt.

I hope that it works for you as a direct replacement fit, but I did want to give everyone the gist of my experiences.

Good luck, either way.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

 

Hi Kirby: I can't argue with what you've seen. It does not surprise me.

However in your findings, you made one big assumtion, and that is the sleeve was properly identified. After 35 plus years in working with machined parts, that was and is a problem for a large manufacturer. Parts can and are often mis-identified, and it always shows up at assembly.

Also as I tried to point out, with "4" lead threads involved, going from an original to a #1 may or may not work. Hence the suggestion of the #2 adjusting sleeve.

Again I feel if you had all 7 Md 12 adjusting sleeves, (original, and 1-6) all lying next to one another, and study them, you can soon pick up the difference with just the naked eye. At least with an original and a #3 or a #1 and a #4. They are cut differently.

As to fitting. I agree if a person who has little mechanical aptitude should not be doing this. 40 years ago I would not have. But after 40 years of working on them and reading the Winchester tech manual, knowing how to properly lap the face of an adjusting sleeve to get the right thread engagement, and knowing how the barrel is suppose to fit next to the chamber ring. I think I can fit one as well as most gunsmiths. Obviously a place like Simmon Gun Specialties or Andy's Custom Shop who work on Md 12s daily could probably do it quicker than I do. LOL

Again answering questions of this nature on a forum is difficult. You don't have the barrel/adjusting sleeve to look at, nor the receiver. So you have no idea how to judge for wear. Nor do I know if someone who has cut an extra notch or two into the current sleeve. In most cases you have to speak in "generalites". Just because you can't see it.

There are aftermarket adjusting sleeves out there on the parts market. Those have always been the hardest ones to work with, IMO.

Finally for anybody who decides to change there own adjusting sleeve, when you think your all done, don't forget to check the chamber ring bore to the chamber bore. Again do to machining tolerances, you may have a step condition between the two I.D.s. this could lead to problems when loading or extracting the emties. (If a step condition is present, the concentricy of the threads, (ID or OD) of the new adjusting sleeve is slightly different than the old adjusting sleeve). This may require reaming. Only a few gunsmiths today have a set a Md 12 reamers. This is definately a task for a Md 12 gunsmith!

Regards to all

Dave

 

Regards, Dave.
I was recounting the time that I was at a big-name shop, and using the new parts from Winchester when I had those variabilities demonstrated in the work that I was there to do. I did not make any assumptions about where those had originated, but did notice that the lack of proper inspection on the mis-cut sleeves (that I had mentioned earlier) was an unfortunate reality that I wished I hadn't seen from Winchester.

I consider those parts to be properly identified, but may not be "correctly" identified, maybe? There was a large selection, so my comparisons of the row of # sleeves was not limited to just a few. That is why I say that the numbers did not work to minimize fitting efforts using what was available. I do much better with my own system of calibration of the sleeves. That was where I arrived at those comparisons noted in my last post.

Between what I learned there, and the many years after, I do consider myself a shotgun, Winchester, and Model 12 specialist. I did rebuild jobs on damaged frames that were in a non-shootable shape.

I do happen to have the nice multi-gauge set of chamber ring tooling.

I have seen that the sleeves that were properly manufactured have minimal chamber ring alignment problems when swapping from a worn (properly cut) sleeve to a replacement (properly cut) sleeve. Normal machining tolerance between them should exhibit nothing like the misalignment seen when an alternate barrel is fitted to an existing chamber ring.

That situation is where I have seen the majority of alignment problems of chamber to chamber ring.

I was wondering why you thought that seeing the wear of the frame or adjusting sleeve is necessary to make recommendations? (Maybe for specific recommendations?) Since I have done so many special fitting and rebuild jobs, my own personal experience is that I fix the problem regardless of whatever wear may have occurred. Perhaps your experience allows for different viewpoint. For me, the way that I have been doing work is just my own style that suits the production, and don't think that I am saying another competent way does not exist.

I also have reworked the oversize chambers that cause problems with extraction on duck gun M-12's. High brass shells swell to excess and get stretched too much to have the normal elastic rebound all cartridges are supposed to have. That is why a shell does not normally have problems sliding out of a proper chamber, except in the situations in semi rifles, for example, where the shell has some chamber grip due to the speed of mechanical extraction being faster than the case rebound, thus the fluted chambers in HK etc.

By the way, from my experience, I have seen 10 sleeves, the blank, A, B, C, and 1-6. Numrich has "regular" and "light", plus the 1-6, with no mention of the letter versions. I believe the "B" version stood for "base" or other designation for beginning or basic sleeve. Most of the original sleeves that I replaced had a "B" stamped or were blank. Then the "A" would be the light draw, but where does the "C" go, as an in-between "B" and #1?

Always enjoy the exchange of information, and I'll have more to contribute later.

See my previous posts.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

 

Hi everyone: Please believe me Kirby, I'm not questioning your work experience and or expertise in Md 12s. Quite the contrary, I'm still learning and even from you!! But the nice thing about a forum is the ability to exchange ideas, expertise and opinions. Just because I may not express a thought exactly like you would, doesn't mean we aren't on the same page.

I'm speaking just for me here. When I have the gun in my hands, and can cycle it, feel the barrel, then remove the barrel from the action, look at threads, etc. I may discount the next higher adjusting sleeve as a starting point. IE: an original to a #1, I wouldn't bother with, I may start with a #2 first.

I have to keep mentioning the leading thread issue again. I've replaced original adjusting sleeves with new original sleeves, (un-numbered). Sometimes it's put a sleeve on, try and see where you are. If the barrel assy starts and goes at least "halfway" on, then I know just a little lapping is required on that sleeve to get a great fit. If it wont start, I pick another sleeve.

I can almost guarantee the inside and outside threads were checked with a "go/nogo" thread gage. However manually setting up each individual adjusting sleeve on a surface plate, and checking the concentricity of the inside thread to the outside thread, would be way to costly. I'm sure that they were sample inspected, Maybe 5 out of a 100 as an example.

You have to remember that pre-64 parts were all machined on conventional machines, (no CNC machines) and parts were all inspected by hand, with some kind of gage. Not a coordinate measuring machine. When tooling is new, you will get your best results. When the tooling starts to wear, but still within spec, the results differ. Machining on old conventional machines the machineist did a great job holding the +/- .002 tolerance. But sometimes it fell out of bed. As cutting tools wear they have a tendancy to cut oversize. So when it comes to adjusting sleeves, if I could get the first 5 off the machine as opposed to the last 5 out of a 100, I'll take the first 5 everytime! Same with threading the barrels, or the inter-rupted thread on the receiver. A lot of varibles can come into play why all parts are not exactly "identical".

Again when looking at a Md 12 adjusting sleeve the original or #1-#6 and the Md 97 sleeves "A,B,or C" I can't say an A equals a #1 or a C equals a #5. to me it's been more like an A equals an original plus a half, or a C equals 4 1/2 if they made them.

Post 64 Md 12 parts certainly didn't get the attention that pre-64 parts did. By the 70's when they were making the "Y" Model 12s those parts seem like junk compared to early parts.

The above has been some of my observations, coupled with machining experience in large lots, and my "play time" working on Md 12s. Of course doing it for a living Kirby you've certainly have more experience to "draw" from!!

Regards Dave

 

The "C" is a model version update on the 1897 it has nothing to do with the adjusting sleeve dimension.

Darryl

 

Thankyou have a nice night