How was that list compiled, via the dart board method?

 

Fabri. Hands down. I'll take the fantasy bolino from Turcoli, thank you. No, the other one with the leopard girl, yes that's the one. Do you take credit cards?

 

Sort of an interesting article - author picks the bottom-of-the-line Beretta silver pigeon as the gun he'd want if he was on a desert island for 20 years with only one gun .

A bit of usual Anglocentrism with his pick of the No. 1 AyA. In Britain all the finish work, including stock and engraving on the #1 is done in Britain. Nonetheless, the #2 is the best selling sxs in all Britain.

Other than some other minor nit-picking it's hard to argue with his choices. It is interesting that he avoided guns with flocks of golden pheasants or prides of nekked ladies on the receivers. Fastest way to crap up an otherwise very nice gun!

It is unfortunate that he used the word "best" because "best" in shotguns means something quite different than he was trying to convey.

By the way- The Field is a great publication! Been taking it for years.

 

Always interesting to see short-lists of The Best compiled by someone who is knowledgeable. The difficulty in doing so for shotguns lies in comparing the different types of guns available, and then differences in opinion or personal preference begin to cloud selections once we get beyond the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place.

The guns on this list are all fine weapons. Perhaps the only way to reach a consensus would be to list all the suggestions for the top gun in each category (SxS, O/U, Semi, Pump) and then invite everyone to list each group in order - first gets 25 points for a win, second 20, third 15, etc. Points for all are added up and the gun with the most is declared the winner of the category. To make the effort usefull, the selections would also have to be tiered: guns costing less than $1,000, between $1,000 and $5,000, $5,000 to $15,000, and Unlimited. There could also be a special Best Value Award. Well, all that would be interesting but would involve quite an effort.

Let's see, I'll just start my list with F.lli Rizzini for SxS and Armi Fabbri for O/U. The Adventure continues. Shoot Safe. SidelockSxS

 

Always interesting to see short-lists of The Best compiled by someone who is knowledgeable. The difficulty in doing so for shotguns lies in comparing the different types of guns available, and then differences in opinion or personal preference begin to cloud selections once we get beyond the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place.

The guns on this list are all fine weapons. Perhaps the only way to reach a consensus would be to list all the suggestions for the top gun in each category (SxS, O/U, Semi, Pump) and then invite everyone to list each group in order - first gets 25 points for a win, second 20, third 15, etc. Points for all are added up and the gun with the most is declared the winner of the category. To make the effort usefull, the selections would also have to be tiered: guns costing less than $1,000, between $1,000 and $5,000, $5,000 to $15,000, and Unlimited. There could also be a special Best Value Award. Well, all that would be interesting but would involve quite an effort.

Let's see, I'll just start my list with F.lli Rizzini for SxS and Armi Fabbri for O/U. The Adventure continues. Shoot Safe. SidelockSxS

This is where the problem with the word "best" comes in. There are no "Best" pumps or semis!

Best is a category of gun that is made to the highest possible mechanical, aesthetic and handling standards REGARDLESS OF COST. Any gun that is manufactured to a price point cannot be a "best" The differences are not trivial when converted into prices - you can get a very nice Beretta for under $10K but it is not a "best". A really nice 60-year-old Holland & Holland Royal will cost about $40K while a new one is probably over $100K. These would all be "bests" made as well as possible and then priced. In this sense, "best" in not an opinion, but rather a manufacturer's designation.

Most of the time the term "best" means something else - such as "best suited" or "best fitting for me" or "most reliable for the price"

The author of this article used "best" in the latter sense - not in the technical shotgunning sense.

 

My Dear Pumpster - I always enjoy your obsevations, and this one is no exception. However, it seems unfair that the Members of the Honorable Guild of London Gunmakers have been able to seize the once-upon-a-time simple, and well understood by all, word "b**t" and remove it from the English as-spoken-here language. So, we are to be left with good guns, better guns, and better than all the other better guns (but not "b**t" because they are not sidelock guns with Rose and Scroll and exquisite walnut). Without getting wrapped around the axle, what are we ever to do with this elusive concept of ingenious, reliable, in many eyes beautiful, definitely extraordinarily capable, and well known to be better than every other of its kind?

There is a possibility, perhaps even a proposal - the word "b**t" when referring to usage claimed, with good reason and regardless of cost, by the MHGLG is to be hereafter written in either Old English type or Fractur script to denote their traditional and very limited meaning. Otherwise, the word "b**t" in Helvetica, Times Roman, Canson, etc will be taken to simply mean, better than any other implied referent. Humbly submitted, SidelockSxS

 

Yo! Sidelock!!

You really shouldn't take the Brits all that seriously - I don't (having gone to school there) and this is no different. Mostly they're simply amusing (ie see The Field current issue - the von Crapp singers and The Hound of Music). One of the reasons I enjoy The Field!

I was commenting on the use of the term "best" not on whether such usage is fair, reasonable, useful, or even makes sense. It is not meant to denigrate others' guns, it simply mean s it is a maker's highest manufacturing quality gun.

I note also that the Spanish use the term in the 'shotgun' sense also. For example, Pedro Arizabalaga make only "bests".

Anyway, your suggested use of Fraktur is good - after all, the Windsors are German!

 

ss: MIKE YARDLEY is a ENGLISHMAN I am not surprised that he has at least 12 of the guns on the list,are ENGLISH made. But on this side of the pond we have our own list. I have two EUROPEAN guns a RIZZINI o/u & a AyA SxS will they shoot as good as a ENGLISH gun,you bet. I also own a old Ithaca 16ga SxS & my Remington 870 Wingmaster that I'll put up against the ENGLISH finest as they call their guns.Like one post said the list may have been made by throwing darts. It's one Brit's opinion. Doesent mean anything to me.

 

It's a better list than the one in F&S last month... but not by much.

Overly heavy on the English guns... ok, the guy is a Brit... I get it.

Kemen? Come on! It's a good gun, but it's really just a Perazzi knockoff.

And my usual complaint about these lists... no Krieghoff. In my opinion the best competition shotgun ever made (and ANYONE who wouldn't put it in the top three best competition shotguns needs to have their head examined).

Much like my comment in the F&S thread, no Krieghoff=no credibility.

 

Kemen? Come on! It's a good gun, but it's really just a Perazzi knockoff.

And my usual complaint about these lists... no Krieghoff.

Well, isn't the Krieghoff really just another Remington M32? :shock: :lol:

In my opinion the best competition shotgun ever made (and ANYONE who wouldn't put it in the top three best competition shotguns needs to have their head examined).

Much like my comment in the F&S thread, no Krieghoff=no credibility.

Somehow I don't think Mr. Yardley was considering competition guns when you consider the list and the source. :wink: However, if he is considering competition guns, then he would be remiss in leaving the K-gun off. :wink:

Frank

 

What? No Merkels?!?

 

He really loves the Berettas !
Surprising that someone would favor a $1500 over some of the others on that list.

 

I agree it is a Brit's opionion not a single Remington on the list.

 

He really loves the Berettas !
Surprising that someone would favor a $1500 over some of the others on that list.

The Beretta Silver Pigeon is remarkable. They sell about 50,000. a year (according to Yardley). That means that design and manufacturing tooling can be amortized so that it represents a trivial cost per gun. I love sxs and generally do not like O/U. To me (just my opinion) something like a Citori feels like a wet 2x4. So I stay away from O/Us. However, I recently shot a Silver Pigeon and was very pleasantly surprised how nice it felt. It has really nice feel to it. (for an O/U :wink: ) If I ever break down and get an O/U it might well be a SP.

The Merkel is a wonderful gun. I have a 20 ga. sxs and think it fabulous. HOWEVER, Merkels do not handle anything like a good English gun. They are more deliberate, pensive, stolid. Not a bad feeling and conducive to really good shooting. But they lack the life, the excitement, the briskness of a good English gun. I'm not knocking Merkel - I would never sell mine - but I can indeed see how Yardley would perhaps find their handling alien. (I recently compared my Merkel to an E.J. Churchill, ca. 1928, and the difference is staggering!!! They are different - not one better than the other - much like trying to compare a really good vanilla ice cream to a really good chocolate ice cream. Both may be superb, but very, very, different.) I suspect this is why there's no Krieghoff in the list. I've never shot a K-80 but suspect it has much of the Merkel stolidness. No doubt a superb gun and a great favoite of many competitors but again, not brisk and sweet. And therefore not that attractive to someone brought up on, and very used to, English guns.

I do think that including a $1500. gun in that list increases its credibility.

 

That list contains 19 guns. The 20th gun is a.......

 

Remington makes a good gun but by no means should it ever be on a list of best (substitute great if you'd like). :roll: I'm not opposed to them I have 2 out of my 5 shotguns are remingtons but they aren't the best even in their category. I'm sorry I'm not flaming they just aren't anything special. I certainly won't pay the price for a wingmaster. I'm not going to pay $1000 for a new 1100 either. I'll stick with my italian guns that to me have higher fit and finish and I like their operation much more.

 

Not one of those choices will take an "off the rack" slug barrel.

None of our local "bush-billies" around here would think anything is "best" if they can't set it up to whack bambi with it :wink:

 

Pumpster, what model Merkel do you have? Mine is a 147EL and it seems pretty light on its feet. But my only doublegun experience prior to the Merkel was with the better American makes, including a Winchester 21 and a couple of Parkers. The Merkel feels much more "lively" to me than any of the American guns but I've never had the privilege of shooting a nice British gun. Your comments comparing the German gun with the British "bests" were interesting.

Shooting qualities aside, the Merkel sure seems "hell for stout" in its construction. Maybe being tough compromises being quick?

 

Surprised to not see Merkel on that list.

 

Gotta go with dgludwig. There really ought to be at least one Merkel! Otherwise it was pretty good.

 

Pumpster, what model Merkel do you have? Mine is a 147EL and it seems pretty light on its feet. But my only doublegun experience prior to the Merkel was with the better American makes, including a Winchester 21 and a couple of Parkers. The Merkel feels much more "lively" to me than any of the American guns but I've never had the privilege of shooting a nice British gun. Your comments comparing the German gun with the British "bests" were interesting.

Shooting qualities aside, the Merkel sure seems "hell for stout" in its construction. Maybe being tough compromises being quick?

I have a 20 ga. 47E. I totally agree with you - it is a remarkable gun and I love it. You are right - it is livelier than Winchester 21 but I've only shot a 12 ga. Win 21. The Merkel is also lighter and livelier than my Beretta 12 ga 471 Silverhawk. It is vastly different than my 20 ga. AyA #2.

But there is a unique "feel" to a British best. And it is not the Merkel feel. There's nothing wrong with the Merkel feel - it is just different. Arrizabalaga, Arrieta and AyA have captured the British feel nicely. But they set out to do this - trying to clone the quality and handling.

Again, Merkels are awesome guns with their unique feel and I was not dissing them. I almost bought a 12 ga but got the Arrizabalaga instead.

 

These are all good guns, but I am sure we all have our own opinions about the "best" guns. While not a proper British "Best", I have a couple of W&C Scott damascus guns I would put against some on the list. :wink:

 

It never ceases to amaze me that it is impossible here in the states to have an educated discussion about 'Best' shotguns and that God awful ubiquitous Remington 870 keeps getting tossed out there.
It defies reason.
We're talking about high pheasants out on the estate or grouse on the highlands, not dispatching a possum for some backwoods stew :wink: This is tongue in cheek by the way, in the style of outr 'best' English dry sense of humour LOL.
I am serious about that danged 870 though.
Anyone putting that in the same class as a Holland and Holland or a Purdey or any of the others is merely the rantings of a complete philistine :wink:

I would also get rid of that Browning and trade in a nice Cogswell and Harrison or a W.C. Scott as previously mentioned.

 

These are all good guns, but I am sure we all have our own opinions about the "best" guns. While not a proper British "Best", I have a couple of W&C Scott damascus guns I would put against some on the list. :wink:

Those have got to be beautiful guns! (lust, lust)

Can you post some pix?

How heavy are the barrels and are they proofed for nitro?

 

Pumpster: One W&C Scott (both were made in 1895) 12ga. has 2 3/4" chambers, extended forcing cones, and is proofed for 1 oz loads. The other, 2 1/2" chambers, is not proofed, but I shoot it with light loads. I have pix but don't know how to post them...