I am considering switching from red dot to promo because of price. What are the differences. Is promo dirtier? Do they preform the same? I went on alliant's site and my recipe was the same for red dot and promo (same components and amount of powder) . If the only difference is the mess level I don't care, I'm going to clean it anyway. I'm sorry if this question has been posted a thousand times already.
Jesse870
Red dot is a canister powder, hence will throw the same from lot to lot (pretty much, but you still need to weigh your throws anyways when getting into a new jug).
Promo is not a canister powder ( not blended to be the same weight/volume from lot to lot), so every lot you need to check and adjust your bushing to throw what you need. As for the way around this, either order enough of the same lot to hold you off for the year,or if you can not get the same lot, blend the lots that you get so you only need to check each new year order. Also, since Promo is not canister powder, there will be no powder bushing charts for such as a starter bushing to check for weight throws.
Promo is not a canister powder ( not blended to be the same weight/volume from lot to lot), so every lot you need to check and adjust your bushing to throw what you need. As for the way around this, either order enough of the same lot to hold you off for the year,or if you can not get the same lot, blend the lots that you get so you only need to check each new year order. Also, since Promo is not canister powder, there will be no powder bushing charts for such as a starter bushing to check for weight throws.
There is no reason to make this complicated.
Promo is made from the leftovers of several runs of various Alliant powders, the specific powders could be different each time a new lot of Promo is made. When it is blended, it is formulated to have the same burn characteristics as Red Dot. Because the components might be different, each lot may vary slightly in density but it always has the same burn rate as Red Dot.
Load Promo with the same recipes as Red Dot - by weight, not by volume (bushing). That is, if a recipe calls for 17.8 gr of Red Dot, use 17.8 gr of Promo. Generally, Promo is more dense than Red Dot and will require a bushing or two smaller for the same charge weight. Each Promo lot number might be a different density, so each has to be "calibrated' separately. But Promo comes only in 8-lb kegs, so you'll not have to do this often unless you load a LOT of shells. It is a bit more work, but the savings are substantial and many find it worth the effort, and some don't. I've used well over 60-lb of Promo so far, in all sorts of weather and every type of gun, with excellent results... and I have no plans to switch to another 12-ga target powder.
Different lots of Promo leave different amounts of soot, which makes sense if the componet powders vary lot-to-lot. I've used many lots of Promo that has left barrels and gas actions spotless... and some that are sooty. Neither is of any consequence for me, my guns get cleaned after they are shot, period.
Promo is made from the leftovers of several runs of various Alliant powders, the specific powders could be different each time a new lot of Promo is made. When it is blended, it is formulated to have the same burn characteristics as Red Dot. Because the components might be different, each lot may vary slightly in density but it always has the same burn rate as Red Dot.
Load Promo with the same recipes as Red Dot - by weight, not by volume (bushing). That is, if a recipe calls for 17.8 gr of Red Dot, use 17.8 gr of Promo. Generally, Promo is more dense than Red Dot and will require a bushing or two smaller for the same charge weight. Each Promo lot number might be a different density, so each has to be "calibrated' separately. But Promo comes only in 8-lb kegs, so you'll not have to do this often unless you load a LOT of shells. It is a bit more work, but the savings are substantial and many find it worth the effort, and some don't. I've used well over 60-lb of Promo so far, in all sorts of weather and every type of gun, with excellent results... and I have no plans to switch to another 12-ga target powder.
Different lots of Promo leave different amounts of soot, which makes sense if the componet powders vary lot-to-lot. I've used many lots of Promo that has left barrels and gas actions spotless... and some that are sooty. Neither is of any consequence for me, my guns get cleaned after they are shot, period.
Because of it's nature Promo can have issues in cold VS Red Dot. I would shoot promo down to about 40 degrees and switch to Red Dot after that just to make sure it goes bang. Warm weather is here so get 2 kegs of Promo and have fun. 18 grains of either and 1 oz or 1 1/8 makes a good combination
Curious, - how could there be enough leftovers from various other powders to create an entire product offering ? Wouldn't you just keep packaging said other powder until it ran out ?DrMike said:
If the other powders are proprietary runs of powder for ammo manufactures (specific contract specifications etc.) same question applies, - how/why is there so much left over to create an entire product offering of barrel scrapings ? Are they buy-backs, overages, misquotes, mis-estimates, Q/A fallouts?
Has anyone looked at Promo under magnification to see if there are different looking flakes, or do all of the flakes looks identical (and whole/unbroken) ?
Is Promo any more "dustier" than any of the other Alliant powders ?
dont quote me on this, but i am clearly guessing.
i think promo is manufactured as an industrial powder. Any manufacture lots that meet the set density criteria for "red-dot" it gets formulated into red dot.
They just market promo for the home reloader now.
As the density changes from lot to lot with promo, i think that maybe the industrial grade product.
every now and again, powders hit the european market that were previously un obtainable.
someone got hold of a powder called ND20, it is available in 100kg lots only. it is an industrial powder.
when cartridge manufacturers change to a different powder, or discontinue a cartridge, or the powder isnt used in another product, and the powder manufacturer has over produced a powder, it is then sold on to retailers for reloaders.
i think promo is manufactured as an industrial powder. Any manufacture lots that meet the set density criteria for "red-dot" it gets formulated into red dot.
They just market promo for the home reloader now.
As the density changes from lot to lot with promo, i think that maybe the industrial grade product.
every now and again, powders hit the european market that were previously un obtainable.
someone got hold of a powder called ND20, it is available in 100kg lots only. it is an industrial powder.
when cartridge manufacturers change to a different powder, or discontinue a cartridge, or the powder isnt used in another product, and the powder manufacturer has over produced a powder, it is then sold on to retailers for reloaders.
Just curious, since this is counter to my experience... exactly what in Promo's "nature" makes it have cold weather issues, and more cold weather issues than Red Dot? What do you know about Promo that the rest of us don't?drh08 said:
We have been told here by folks from Alliant (check the archives) that Promo is blended and packaged from the ends of other runs of powder. All I'm doing is passing that along, I really have no direct evidence whether or not that's accurate. I seriously doubt that we will get more information than that from Alliant. There has been a lot of speculation of whether those runs are canister powders, OEM powders, floor sweepings or whatever. In the end, does it really matter? If the product performs as advertised, who cares? Clearly they have enough of these leftovers, overruns or whatever to package, market and sell as Promo. Good for Alliant and good for my wallet.Republican said:
In my experience, some lots of Promo are "dustier" than others before shooting, some are "sootier" than others after shooting. I have not examined any gunpowder under a microscope, nor would it ever occur to me to do so.
Promo is blended and the density changes from lot to lot. I have had kegs that performed in the cold and some that didn't perform so great in the cold. This has just been my experience, so when it gets colder I switch to red Dot as this powder performance doesn't seem to change from keg to keg. I don't claim to know how they make Promo, however there is difference, that is why you may need to change bushings from lot to lot with Promo.
If Promo was made from over runs , wouldn't we see red markers, green markers , different sized flakes and so forth. Promo looks pretty uniform to me, and I have not had any issues with cold, sometimes single digits, at all. I guess I'm happy Promo interchanges with Red dot and just let Alliant make the stuff.
This post paints an interesting picture about the internal dynamics inside the company, specifically marketing directors vs. Chief Engineers.jtclays said:
Parts of it seem to contradict itself a bit. i.e. 50/50 red dot/A.S. is hogwash, but in the end it says that is often a blend of A.S. overruns, Red/Green dot, and fast OEM's. So the first guy may have been wrong about the 50/50 part, but wasn't all wrong in saying that it has Red dot and A.S. in it.
Not that it matters, but it still leaves questions. Why would there be A.S. "overruns" in the first place? Unless they made more A.S. than the market is willing to buy (at a given cost). Same with Red dot/Green dot? - why would there be enough "loose" Red dot/Green dot floating around the plant to be able to blend it together to get a "cheaper" powder ?
And since as someone mentioned, why aren't there colored dots in promo ? Maybe the different powder bases that are blended in it are Q/A dropouts of what would be Red dot/Greed dot/A.S. If so, why is there so much variance happening in the first place ?
But it is interesting that you could mix Red dot/Green dot/A.S./fast OEM powders and get back to the same energy/weight ratio of Red dot. Makes me wonder if I could just mix my keg bottoms of Clays, International, and Universal (and sprinkle in a little Titewad just for good measure) and hand up back with CLAYS :shock:
But I'm sure we will never know the actual marketing science/decisions behind Promo, and not sure we should. Lot of it could be being done just to determine the price-point of certain product labelings, or to test if a particular product will even sell at all. if product Z is outselling products X & Y by 3:1 at a certain price-point, I'd be finding ways to dump the vats of X & Y into the Z vat too. Marketing, advertising, and the human psyche can be a powerful force when it comes to the green back.
Course (being funny here), - might be fun to see the marketing brass play this to the opposite extreme to cater to the Hummer driving crowd. i.e. (new product banner) "We've listened to our customers, and formulated the Ultimate Mega-Blend that combines the top features of ALL of our top-shelf powders into one affordable powder at just a few pennies more. Mega-dot now offers ALL of the features found in e3, A.S., Clay dot, and Green dot for the most demanding shooter". (fine print) "Contents: 25% e3, 25% A.S., 25% Clay dot, %25 Green dot".
Hey, the 3-in-1 household oil folks did this with great success over the years
Disclaimer: I got nothing against Hummer drivers, and not intending to offend them in any way.
Ease up JT, - I feel some of the questions that I eluded to are valid question for folks (such as myself) that really don't know how propellants are made, packaged, and marketed.
Specifically, how do "overruns" occur, or just what is the proper definition of an "overrun" ?
i.e., and I've asked in my original post, if your are actively manufacturing, packaging, and selling a particular product (A.S., Red dot, Green dot etc), then how/why are there "overruns" ? Wouldn't you keep this "overrun" powder in it's original vat and keep selling it ? If not, what makes it no longer viable as the product it was originally made for ? That's a fair question in my view.
I personally don't see anything wrong with questioning an inner corporate structure, - just trying to understand the complete picture of how things work there. Marketing people aren't engineers, and engineers aren't marketing people, so maybe it would be noble to extend an invitation for the the Marketing director to join the forum so that we can get both sides of the story right from the horses mouth. Why would that be a bad thing ? I wouldn't expect a Chief Engineer to know all of the marketing details any more than I'd expect the Marketing Director to know all of the engineer details.
If Promo was available at our components shack at my club(s), I'd be inclined to try it too.
Specifically, how do "overruns" occur, or just what is the proper definition of an "overrun" ?
i.e., and I've asked in my original post, if your are actively manufacturing, packaging, and selling a particular product (A.S., Red dot, Green dot etc), then how/why are there "overruns" ? Wouldn't you keep this "overrun" powder in it's original vat and keep selling it ? If not, what makes it no longer viable as the product it was originally made for ? That's a fair question in my view.
I personally don't see anything wrong with questioning an inner corporate structure, - just trying to understand the complete picture of how things work there. Marketing people aren't engineers, and engineers aren't marketing people, so maybe it would be noble to extend an invitation for the the Marketing director to join the forum so that we can get both sides of the story right from the horses mouth. Why would that be a bad thing ? I wouldn't expect a Chief Engineer to know all of the marketing details any more than I'd expect the Marketing Director to know all of the engineer details.
If Promo was available at our components shack at my club(s), I'd be inclined to try it too.
I tend to agree.jtclays said:
Through all the reading I kept thinking to myself, "It shoots well, it's cheap, and readily available. What more do I need to know?"
The rest is conjecture as far as I'm concerned. Alliant obviously isn't going to provide all its secrets, hence giving away the recipe for what makes them a product leader in low cost, effective 12 gauge powders.
People can guess until their blue in the face, but it still doesn't change the fact that we will probably never know what comprises the offering that we call PROMO.
Where do you get your Promo from? As I've mentioned, I don't have local access to it, and wouldn't mind trying the stuff for myself .SShooterZ said:
I used to buy it from Recobs (http://www.recobstargetshop.com/)
I have enough stockpiled that I haven't had a need to buy recently. They come and visit a local club on a monthly basis so it always worked out real well for me.
If you've used Red Dot, I think you will find Promo to be very similar.
I have enough stockpiled that I haven't had a need to buy recently. They come and visit a local club on a monthly basis so it always worked out real well for me.
If you've used Red Dot, I think you will find Promo to be very similar.
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